Fred Alan Wolf combines his talent for quantum physics with a sharp philosophical mind, a poet’s heart, and the mystic’s visionary quest. He is one of the foremost representatives of new-paradigm thinking in science. Using the discoveries of quantum-relativistic physics, he has been able to bring scientific rigor into the study of such elusive phenomena as mysticism, shamanism, dreams, the relationship between the mind and the body, and the nature of reality.

In his work, Wolf explores the basic operations of thinking, sensing, feeling, and intuiting form and shape the primary material of our conscious and unconscious life. He calls it the "new alchemy" and he writes that reshaping this primary material gives rise to forces that transform the world and us, namely creation, animation, resistance, vitality, replication, chance, unification, structure, and transformation. And in a summing up, he adds, "The ultimate goal of all this being the transmutation of information into matter; matter arises from the mind - a vast field of influence commonly envisioned as the Mind of God."

Wolf is planning a quartet of books on his "new alchemy" written in a cycle following the cyclical sense of alchemy itself. The first phase of his cycle was the book Mind into Matter (published in 2001). The second book is Matter into Feeling (published in 2003), which is discussed in the transcript below. He hopes to follow these with Feeling into Spirit, and the last book in the quartet, Spirit into Mind.

The movie "What the #$*! Do w (k)ow!?" or "What the Bleep Do we know!?," combines an emotionally charged live action dramatic narrative starring Academy Award-winner Marlee Matlin, with mind-expanding documentary interviews of 14 top scientists and mystics, and visionary, state-of-the-art animation. The result is a stunning illustration of the growing convergence of leading edge science and spirituality. Dr. Fred Alan Wolf is one of the scientists interviewed in the film. For more information about the movie see www.whatthebleep.com

To contact Dr. Wolf, you may write to him

c/o Moment Point Press
P.O. Box 4549
Portsmouth, NH 03802

Fred Alan Wolf is the author of ten books and a winner of the National Book Award. His books are:

The Body Quantum: The New Physics of Body, Mind, and Health (1986)
The Dreaming Universe: A Mind-expanding Journey into the Realm Where Psyche and Physics Meet (1994)
The Eagle’s Quest: A Physicist’s Search for Truth in the Heart of the Shamanic World (1991)
Matter into Feeling: A New Alchemy Of Science And Spirit (2003)
Mind into Matter: A New Alchemy Of Science And Spirit (2001)
Parallel Universes: The Search for Other Worlds (1988)
The Spiritual Universe: One Physicist’s Vision of Spirit, Soul, Matter, and Self (1999)
Space-Time and Beyond (1981) (co-authored with Bob Toben)
Star Wave: Mind, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics (1984) and
Taking the Quantum Leap: The New Physics for Non-Scientists (1981)

Fred Alan Wolf came to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore in February, 2003 to discuss his book Matter into Feeling. What follows is an edited version of that presentation.

Fred Alan Wolf:

Some of you may not know who I am. I am a 68-year-old presence on this planet [2003] that happens to have a name and that was born of a mother and father, as I think most of you were. There might be a few clones sneaking in these days, but I haven’t seen one yet. I grew up in Chicago, Illinois. I was a typical ordinary kid. I wasn’t any brighter or dumber than most kids on the block, but I developed a case of severe stammering between the ages of 8 and 10. I don’t exactly know why I developed a case of severe stammering. It may have been because I was living next door to a kid who stammered and I recognized that by stammering, you were able to get the attention of this figure in your life that you call your mother, which I sometimes had difficulty doing. So, I got her attention all right. In fact, I got her attention too well. I was being taken to Northwestern University where they wanted to drill holes in my head to alleviate pressure. That’s what they used to do to alleviate stammering in those days. As I told you, I’ve been on the planet for a while.

My mother and I used to go to Saturday matinees together. I loved going to Saturday matinees. We would see things like "Captain Marvel", the guy who flies through the air and says "shazam." Suddenly this little kid becomes this big, muscle-y guy. I was blown away by all that stuff, and especially the flying. I loved the way people flew. Then the newsreel would come on and suddenly there was an atomic bomb that exploded. I saw that test explosion and I was really shocked. I mean, I was just on the edge of pubescence, between pre-pubescence and pubescence, watching an atomic bomb go off and I was getting excited. And I know it’s weird, but I was a weird kid.

I decided that physics must really have some weird stuff in it if you can do things like that. What the heck is that all about? What is physics all about? I decided at that early age that I wanted to study or understand physics. That’s how I became a physicist. However, that really wasn’t what I was interested in. My major interest has always been magic. As a stammerer, I had to learn how to not stammer and I practiced deep breathing exercises for one thing, which helped, and I also did magic tricks in front of a mirror. Now, I’m telling you all this for a reason, and you’re going to understand why in a moment. I just want you get my background -- what produces me. What makes me the weird bird that I am.

So, I have a background in magic. I then began playing the harmonica because it helped me improve my breathing, but I didn’t play jazz or blues; I played classical harmonica, like Ravel’s "Bolero," Gershwin’s "Rhapsody in Blue." I had music, magic, stammering, the atomic bomb and puberty all to deal with during these early stages of growing up. I never stopped doing any of those activities. I think I’m still passing through puberty. I don’t know when it ends. By the time that I went on to get a Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics, right around the corner here at UCLA, I was still a stammerer. But I was doing so much speaking, breathing exercises and magic -- I did a lot of close-up magic at the Magic Castle right here in Hollywood - that the stammering was changing. I realized that what was changing it and what had happened to me was a kind of magical shift. You might even call it an alchemical shift. The shift was the recognition that inside of me was more than one person. There were other people that could move through me, talk through me, be me, but it was always me. I knew it was always me, but there were these other personas that would come out. Now, you hear me. You’re watching me. You think, well, this guy’s an extrovert. I am not an extrovert. I am very introverted, very private, a very quiet kind of person. If no one speaks to me, I won’t speak to anybody else. But, when I’m performing, the performer comes out. The extrovert comes out. This mover comes out. And it’s like a different person. Do you understand what I’m saying? Maybe all of you understand this because you, yourself, can look back at your background, and I’ll think you’ll be able to see that as you grew up there were certain personae that you adopted or became accustomed to, and some of you never gave up on those personae. A physicist friend of mine who’s in his sixties still thinks he’s a teenager on one persona, one level of his being.

As I began to try to bridge the gaps -- magic, performance, music, physics, all that stuff -- I had a desire to explain things, to make things clear. So, I began to teach. I was a professor of physics for a number of years at a lot of different places, mostly at San Diego State. There I had a chance to teach courses like "Physics for Poets" and things of that sort, where I had to work with people who had no understanding of basic mathematics. It’s rather shocking that people can go through college and not understand basic mathematics nor have an understanding of science. And these people would be in my class and I would have to try to explain to them Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. And you think you can’t do it. And I’d have to try to explain to them quantum mechanics, or quantum physics -- what’s that all about? And that was really an interesting challenge. How would I do that? I realized that all the things that made me up were ideal for bringing the ideas of relativity and quantum mechanics to people, because the ideas are abstract, they’re conceptual, and they can be made into pictures, into visuals. In a way it’s kind of like doing a trick. It’s like doing a performance. You show somebody something that they can grab hold of and then you do the trick while they’re not looking, which is, explain something they really don’t understand, but nevertheless, they can attach it to something they do understand and it gives them some feeling about the subject that they’re studying.

I began writing. My first book was a book called Space-Time and Beyond. It’s a cartoon book I did with a couple of other guys. Bob Toben, who’s a brilliant cartoonist, was really the main thrust behind that book. It was a very successful book, so I decided to strike out on my own. I wrote a book called Taking the Quantum Leap. That was my real first attempt to try to explain quantum physics to the non-scientist. It won the National Book Award in 1982.

I decided that writing would be a good career so I began writing more. And then I began writing about things that really interested me. The thing that really interested me was me. Big surprise. And what really interested me was, how does my mind work? Why am I this way? Why do I think the things I do? Why is my personality like this and somebody else’s personality is like that? These are questions that interest me. I thought, does physics have anything to do with that? And then it became clear to me that if physics did, there was one area of physics that certainly did, and that was called quantum physics. Why? Because quantum physics has what’s called an embarrassment in it for most physicists.

The embarrassment is that the mathematical description that physicists use to write down what’s going to happen in the physical world simply doesn’t work. It does not describe the physical world at its most basic level. I’ll repeat: The equations that physicists write down do not describe the physical world. What world do they describe? The answer is, the world of their imaginations. Why does it describe the world of their imaginations? Because it describes what imagination has to deal with -- the possibilities that might take place in the physical world. The equations that describe quantum physics are very mathematical; they are difficult to study for people that aren’t mathematically inclined, but nevertheless, what they describe is not physical matter, but the possibilities of physical matter.

I thought, as other physicists have thought, what is a possibility? When the possibility becomes like it’s going to happen, then objects begin to behave like that more or less. Are possibilities stuff? Can you grab a possibility and stick it in a box? Can you shove it around? Does it have weight? Is it energy? People talk in the New Age now: We have to balance the energy. And they talk about, even in Chinese medicine, "energy, energy." I want to tell you a secret: It ain’t energy. It has nothing to do with energy. Energy will move according to what it is, but it isn’t the energy which is causing all the stuff to happen. It is something else going on. And that’s what I want to get to with you. I’m going to explain it to you so you can understand what I’m talking about.

Here we’re talking about this stuff, this stuff which ain’t stuff called possibilities. It’s possibility non-stuff stuff. Okay? Well, think a minute. If possibilities can affect matter, and if we were to try to imagine what a possibility "looks like," or "where it might be," or "how it might behave" like as if it were an object that moves around and has a location, then this would have to be a possibility that’s somehow out there in space and time. Like an object is out there in space and time. Like this cup is out there in space and time. This surrounding is out there in space and time. There’s this body out there. The words that I’m speaking are reverberating on your eardrums and your eardrums are vibrating in space and time. That vibration is causing neural circuits to go wickety-whack, whackety-wick in your brain, and in certain cortical regions of your brain, and your brain is out there in space and time doing it’s little dance. What I’m talking about is where are these possibility waves?

Anybody who hasn’t thought about quantum physics would say, possibilities are things in your mind, right. They’re things you think about. ‘Oh, yeah, that’s possible. No, that’s not possible. Yeah, that’s probable. Yeah, that could happen. No, that’s impossible.’ Where does all that exist? That’s in the mind. But where is mind? Scientists would say your mind is in your brain. But there ain’t any mind in the brain. If there is, then that mind is as much out of my brain as it is in my brain. It’s in every brain. It’s mind is everywhere. But mind isn’t something that has a boundary around it. It doesn’t end and begin anywhere in space or time. If it does, then how does it behave? If it behaves, then maybe it behaves according to the rules of quantum physics, which govern how possibilities change. Do you see what I’m talking about here? Are you with me so far?

These possibilities, I wondered, were there any other cultures that ever dealt with this stuff besides quantum physicists? Let me go back to quantum physics for just a moment. Here’s what embarrassing about it. When somebody observed something and says, "That’s a table right there," those are possibilities, which means that table could be a few angstroms over to the left, a few angstroms up that way, a little bit lower, a little bit higher. Suddenly, pop into some localized region of space and time here, there, and now, bango-wango, and all the possibilities of it being a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit over here, a little bit over there, change and suddenly they’re just gone. And only what’s left is what’s being observed. Those possibilities can suddenly change as a result of a simple act called observation. That’s an observation.

That is embarrassing because observation is the parlance of mind stuff. It’s where the mind is. It’s where perception occurs, where you perceive something is happening. Where you decide, ‘oh yeah, oh yeah, oh that’s possible, no, that’s not possible.’ It’s in that area where all this goes on.

Possibilities matter. Possibilities change, matter changes. Hmm. Maybe possibilities and matter are somehow different sides of the same coin. Maybe they’re more intimately connected than we ever thought. And if that’s the case, then what we call "mind" has got to be part of the physical world as well as the stuff we call matter is part of the physical world. In other words, it’s there, it’s got to be in things. It can’t just be separate from things.

As you begin to think about that thought more and more, it may lead to some interesting consequences. You begin to investigate the world of people like shamans, for example, in the Peruvian jungle, and you find that they know about this. They’ve known about it for thousands of years. There was a rabbi called "Yeshua," Jesus Christ, who knew about this 2,000 years ago. All spiritual practice is based upon this idea. It’s as old as the hills. The aboriginal Australians know about this. They’ve seen it in action. They understand it from a different perspective, a different "technology" than our Western technology uses and understands.

What they’ve recognized is that there is a connection between the mind that we experience as my mind, and each of you would say it the same way I did -- ‘my mind.’ And when I say "my," I mean, the mind that I consider to be mine. And you would say, ‘my mind’ to mean the mind that you consider to be yours. As we’d say the words "my mind," the notion comes in that possibly that mind cannot only just affect the body that it thinks it’s in, or it has to deal with, but it might be able to affect a lot of bodies because it’s not truly localized in any one particular body or anybody’s body, and very possibly it’s a non-local mind. By "non-local," I mean, it isn’t located anywhere.

This notion, when you date it back to the ancient Greeks and go back in time to the ancient Qabalists, who were practicing this form of magic at the time -- and here’s where I come into the picture -- you find they also have the same notion, and they used to talk about it this way. They would say, ‘as above, so below.’ You’ve heard that before. As within, so without. As above, so below. As within, so without. In other words, the stuff that’s out there isn’t what it seems to be until you are there with it in your mind presence.

The amount of mind presence you have you may think is pretty minimal, but it’s really not your mind per se that I’m necessarily talking about. I want to get to the difference between the so-called personality mind, of which there are many personalities inside of every one of you, to the one mind that I’m really referring to. This is the ancient secret of alchemy. This is what the alchemists were really into. The magnus opus, the major work, was the realization of that. What the alchemist was trying to do was to transform from the blasé, mundane, ordinary into the super ordinary, or extraordinary. From the gross to the refined. Whether it was with base metals firing up furnaces and cooking stuff up, or whether it was dealing with the internal politic of what a person could believe or not believe, that was up to the alchemist. But the basic underlying reality that they dealt with was this.

After writing the book I just mentioned, Taking the Quantum Leap, I wrote a book called Star Wave, about mind consciousness and quantum physics. I then did a book about the human body and how consciousness works in the body. Key word now, ‘mind-consciousness.’ Tie those together as one for a moment. I’ll separate them later. Then I worked on a book called Parallel Universes, which described alternate realities. And I wrote a book about the time I spent with shamans called The Eagle’s Quest. And from The Eagle’s Quest I immediately got interested in the dreaming world, and I wrote a book called The Dreaming Universe, which deals with how all this works in dreams and why, in fact, we dream. Ever wonder why you dream? You need to. It isn’t a question of why. You absolutely have to. Nearly all the mammals except two classes dream. You know which two classes don’t dream? I’ll tell you. The cetacea -- that’s the whales and the dolphins -- and the echidna -- and that’s the spiny anteater from Australia and South America. It supposedly doesn’t dream. We don’t really know whether these animals dream or not. All we know is they don’t have R.E.M., they don’t do Rapid Eye Movement.

We dream to create a self. That was a very important key idea that the book, The Dreaming Universe, got into. After The Dreaming Universe, I decided to write about spirituality in science, so I wrote The Spiritual Universe. That attracted a lot of attention. And then I began to write about the subject which, where I began, where I came in, where the magic comes in. I called it "New Alchemy." There’ll be a quartet of New Alchemy books. The quartet is written in a cycle because alchemy is cyclical; it’s not a linear thing. The first phase of the cycle came out and was called Mind into Matter. The next book, which is the book I’m going to be signing here, and hopefully you’re going to be buying from this bookstore, is Matter into Feeling. Book three will be called Feeling into Spirit. Book four will be called Spirit into Mind. That’s a cycle of four just like our seasons. That’s a series on the New Alchemy.

In the New Alchemy there is a mixture of two fields of thought. There is the spiritual thinking based upon the alchemists, and the Qabalists, probably pre-thirteenth, fourteenth century Spain, when it is popularly accepted that Qabala began. It actually began much earlier than that. The practice of Qabala, of alchemy, and other spiritual practices were very closely tied together. There wasn’t much distinction between them. Some of the sixteenth century mystics who were gentiles wrote a lot of alchemy using Hebrew symbols. They recognized that the Hebrew symbols, which are significant of Qabala and codes in Qabala -- mathematical codes in Qabala -- had some power there.

Let me focus now on just Matter Into Feeling, and then I’m going to open the door up for questions from you. Mind into Matter dealt with the subject of how the material world comes into being, how mind forms matter, what is the basis for it, what are some of the structures which have to form in order for matter to emerge, or how mind comes into it once it’s formed, comes in and begins. It deals with a lot of stuff having to do with the basic seed-like propositions. What are the basic laws of the univh the basic seed-like propositions. What are the basic laws of the universe as seen by spiritual masters, for example. I found that, universally, most spiritual masters, believe it or not, deal with nine basic principles. They may change them around a little bit, but there’s always a subject of nine, for some reason.

I use the nine basic principles from Qabala as the basic tools to set up Mind into Matter. When you go from Matter into Feeling, you’re moving into a whole different phase. Mind into Matter, more or less, is how do I get the stuff that I can bounce stuff off of. This body is matter so first I’ve got to get matter, and now once I get matter, what do I want to get it for? For example, I could make matter that is a golem and be like a robot, and it does not know what it is saying when it is saying. I could do that. But that’s not a feeling being, is it? That’s a mechanical device.

In order to go from Mind into Matter, the next phase has to be: how does that matter begin to feel, and what does it mean that matter feels? What feeling is, is the incessant hum of life that you’re experiencing right now. You call it the "bright." You don’t see it in a dead body, but you do see it in living beings. You see it in living plants. If you get stoned enough on LSD you’ll see it in a lot of things, especially living plants. You’ll see the buzz, you’ll see the hum. LSD is very helpful for that kind of thing. I wanted to know what does it mean to come into feelings. So in order to understand feeling, I had to first understand, once we have matter, what is it that’s taking place that can feel? First of all, what must arise for a feeling to arise? And I came to the conclusion that what must arise is that you have to arise. That is, a self has to arise. Something which can associate a limitation of who and what you are. It must immediately limit itself from what it is capable of being, or what it is. But it doesn’t recognize it any longer. I call this collapse a process where the soul enters into body.

Chapter one talks about how that process works and gives you a quantum physical picture of how that actually takes place, how the soul into self arises. But there’s more to it than that. The self which you recognize as your own particular self, began to form within the first few weeks of fetal development in your mother’s womb. It began to form through a process of resonance or reflection or recognition, and what it began to do is to associate patterns of recognition or process with various sensory inputs that were coming into it. The most common one, the one that in fact gives us the sense that we call music, is the mother’s heartbeat. And I might suggest to you, loosely, that mothers that gave birth to the current round of kids -- where there’s so much of the ‘pounding’ kind of music -- the mothers might have been doing stuff to get their heartbeats going up. They might have been taking stuff or just doing too much. So the kids are rocking on that music.

My mother must not have done too much because I still do love classical music. I don’t like rock music. I’ll listen to it for a little while, but I get very bored with it because I find it tedious. But I’d listen to classical music forever. Maybe there’s something to do with the way our mothers are inundated with the signs and the sounds of the times. Anyway, first things are the heartbeats, the resonances of that. And there is a kind of a process that goes on, and this process is taking place during a phase that you’re in approximately 19 to 20 hours of every day. You’re doing this process. This process is called dreaming. The early fetus begins to dream as soon as it has a brain and eyes. We don’t know what it’s doing before there’s any brain, so maybe we’re talking 6 to 8 weeks. We can see the fetus dreaming when there’s something to look at and see.

Why should you be dreaming all this time? What the heck is going on? It’s because you’re developing a self. The second chapter of this book deals with dreaming, and it deals with how this process of the self is further brought into being.

"In dreaming, we dreamers create a story or a play. Storytelling or playacting appear to be a very important part of human evolution; we dream because we need to dream in order to evolve. And, in fact, most creatures dream. Dreaming is the result of each creature’s evolving awareness of how to adapt to its environment...It seems that the dream is the place where we learn how to become aware and to separate an 'out there' from an 'in here.' The dream is a laboratory of the self-creation. In this lab an entity becomes defined to itself. It’s a self-referencing process, and the self-referencing process appears to be absolutely necessary for any kind of consciousness to occur. Hence we dream to awaken ourselves to the continual birthing experience of life." - Fred Alan Wolf from Matter Into Feeling

The third chapter gets into feeling and what feelings are and how feelings can be transformed so that the behavior you’re exhibiting that may seem appropriate to you at the time, you’d be able to recognize when it isn’t so appropriate. You’d be able to see how to transform feelings, thoughts, intuitions, and sensations. You’d be able to see what the laws of transformation of those are.

The fourth chapter deals with resistance. Why resistance? Because without resistance, nothing can come into being. Without something to block, you can’t have anything. If you just keep going without resistance, then you just keep going and there’s nothing to reflect on. There’s no mirror that you can reflect off of. There’s nothing you can see. There’s nothing you can even grasp or understand. Your brain won’t have a thought because there’s nothing to reflect on. The brain won’t have neural tissue that can offer resistance, which can then form structures that begin to appear to you as thoughts and memories.

The fifth chapter deals with life itself, and it deals with the practice of life. It deals with how we tend to live our lives as if we were in the middle of some Gaussian bell-shaped curve and how that is an ideal place to be if you can’t do anything. But as you get to be experts in life -- and everybody here is an expert at something, or maybe several things -- you shift the bell-shaped curve so that it becomes very likely that you’re going to do something differently and better and with more success than you did before, and as you do that, success gives you more chances for getting success with higher odds, so you start succeeding even more. But if a failure occurs, and this is what makes this interesting, if a failure does occur it is catastrophic. If you’re a business person and you’re running a successful business and you’re doing things really well, everything’s going right and you think you got it all made, but it’s still a probability, it’s still a crap shoot, it’s still probabilities what we’re dealing with. Suddenly, something fails, it could be pretty catastrophic. It’s very hard to recover from that. That’s why the old stories about when the stock market crashed, you’d see these guys jumping out of the windows when their stocks went down, because they couldn’t figure out how to recover. They didn’t know how to deal with failure. This chapter deals with that curve of life.

The sixth chapter deals with sex. Why would I want to talk about sex? Well, I told you about my early childhood, so it should be not so surprising that I would want to talk about sex. I wonder, why do we have sex? It seems like a silly question, but think about it. What’s the purpose of having sex? There are momentary pleasures. Some people say, "Oh, momentary, well, I can make love for hours and hours, and I have multiple orgasms. I orgasm forever and..." Okay, good for you. But, generally, what’s the purpose of doing that and spending so much time doing that? Or spending so much time worrying about doing that to the point where we can’t do anything unless that’s in it somewhere in the equation. We can’t buy a car without sex in the car. We can’t buy clothes without sex in the clothes. We can’t even look at ourselves in the mirror without the thought, "Will he like me or won’t he? Am I looking good? Hey, how does that look? Is it hanging here right?" We’re thinking all those kind of thoughts all the time. They’re maybe unconscious, but you know you’re doing it. Well, why are you so obsessed with it? And the fear. "Oh, my God, oh, my God. She said no. Aaahhh! Aaahhh!" What’s that all about? Do any of you ever think about that for a moment before you get in the trap of, "I gotta be sexier than anybody else." Look what we do with Hollywood stars. We wouldn’t even let a Hollywood star gain 10 pounds because, "Oh, my God, look at her, she’s got extra weight. Oh, my God, look at her chin. She must have had breast implants." Sex, sex, sex, sex, sex. Why? Think about it. Why do you do that? Why is it so interesting to you? That bit of momentary pleasure, that spasm of ejaculatory or G-spot orgasm, if it even happens to you. Why worry about that? What’s the big deal?

Well, I’m going to tell you what the big deal is. There is a big deal. The religious people say, "Oh, don’t do it unless you’re going to have children." The big deal is that sex is the way your body responds to the future. Now, that’s a trip. Sex, when you’re feeling sexual, you’re hearing the future talking to you through your body. Now, if you want to read more about that, read my book. Because there is a story there. Science has taught us that if science says it’s so, it must be so. What’s that song? If Jesus says it’s so, it must be so? It’s not Jesus anymore, it’s science. If science says it’s so, it’s got to be. Science says that it’s cause and effect. Past, present. Whatever’s happening in the present was due to things that happened in the past. Clarence Darrow, the great attorney, got Leopold & Loeb from the electric chair. They could’ve been wiped out in the electric chair. He saved their butts. How did he do it? He said, "These two people are as much a victim of their genetic code and their past ancestries as the little kid that they killed." And if you buy that, which the jury did, and the jury knew they were guilty, didn’t let them off, but didn’t kill them, either. That was the argument. Clarence Darrow. Your genetic code. It’s the past. The reason we are warlike creatures right now is because we were ooga-booga with the clubs beating each other in the past, and that’s what we all buy, that’s survival of the fittest.

The truth is, it isn’t the past which makes the present. That’s only half of the story. That’s the traditional part. That’s the morphogenetic field part of Rupert Sheldrake. That’s the stuff that says that if you don’t know what you’re doing, do it the way your parents did. And for most people that’s probably good advice. But there’s another half of the story that some scientists are beginning to recognize. I’ve known about it for a while, but it’s just coming into being right now because scientists are taking it more and more seriously. The future can send information back to the present as well. And you can receive that information. And that information is what gives you new insights, new ideas, you never thought about before. You begin thinking about them for the first time. Suddenly, you begin to realize, you don’t have to do it that way. Wow. Suddenly, a paper milk bottle. That’s an old invention. You probably never heard of glass milk bottles. They used to put milk in glass most of the time until somebody figured out you could milk in paper.

What I’m talking about here is the spirit of the new, that there’s a movement from the future into the present, and that’s what chapter seven deals with -- how those two streams clash and how you’re always in the midst of that streaming clash.

Chapter eight is "Possibility into Persona and Soul". It includes this wonderful quote: "He who knows that he is Spirit, becomes spirit, becomes everything; neither gods nor men can prevent him. The gods dislike people who get this knowledge, the gods love the obscure and hate the obvious." So, this deals with what happens to us when we lose our sense of awareness of soul. And it deals with what that process is all about. It’s when you become self-possessed.

The ninth chapter deals with love. And it says something, I thought, when I first discovered it, rather surprising. That the universe was created as an act of love. Now, I know you’ve read that or have heard that before. Shiva and Shakti did it, or God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, etc., etc., love, love, love. But I only heard those words; I didn’t know what they meant. I didn’t realize that there was something hidden, something deep about that, until I began studying Qabala and how Qabala talks about how this universe was created from its point of view. So, the ninth chapter deals with the structure of love, how God created a universe. And whether you believe in God or call it Nature or call it the Big Soul, the Big Spirit, I don’t care. When the universe got created by whatever form you want to think about creating it, love had to be built into it in the guise of the very structure of the labels which are used to describe it. And that chapter deals with what that structure looks like.

It begins with, for example, the Hebrew word for Earth. The Hebrew word for Earth is eretz. It’s spelled aleph-raysh-tsadde. And aleph vav raysh, which is "or," means light. So, in a certain sense, aleph-raysh-tsadde, eretz, is kind of "light into tsadde." But what is tsadde? Tsadde is the ninth principle. Tsadde is the principle of beauty. It’s the Sophia image. It’s that which gives birth. It’s a remarkable image. Hebrew letters, by the way, are also words. So, when you take a Hebrew letter like tsadde and spell it out, tsadde becomes spelled with three other letters, and when you spell those out you’ve got a whole structure. When you look at that structure, it begins to look like a great tree with a mirror reflecting one side of the tree from the other side.

That’s rather remarkable, because in these reflections there are certain key code words that come in. One of them is Doveed, which is David, or Daoud in Arabic. David in Hebrew means the name "David," but it also means "the lover." And there’s another way that the words come in is Dodi. Dodi means "the beloved." And if you look at these words and reflect on them and play with them, you can see that Dodi or Daoud are very similar in form. It’s spelled dallet-hay-dallet-yod. When you reverse it, it looks like yod-hay-vav-hay. And yod-hay-vav-hay is Yahweh, which means God. So, in the beloved is also God. If I could draw it I could explain it. It’s easier to see than it is to hear. I think it’s clear in the book. You begin to see how the Earth itself was formed from a structure of love that contains the hidden name of God. The universe and all of the material world that gets formed is formed out of an act of love. I couldn’t figure out what could God love. And then I began to realize that all God could love would be herself. I mean, what else could she love, because that’s all there is is God. But how could God just love herself without just becoming a maniac doing it. So, God had to create something (and this is going to be coming in the next book), had to be able to create something that blocked her or his vision for a moment. A kind of a momentary blind spot or a wall. In the creation of that wall, that blind spot, something rather interesting happened. There was a sense of separation from the universe. Suddenly, there was an ‘out there’ and an ‘in here’ being born at once. And we’re right back to where we started from: consciousness and the material world. From our perspective, there is mind and there’s matter and they’re separate things. But from the God-like perspective, it’s kind of a trick or an illusion, a blind spot that is created momentarily. And we each have in our eyes a single kind of blind spot where we can’t see anything.

Okay, I’m going to quit. That’s a lot of stuff. I want to turn it over to you and I will be glad to answer questions. Yes.

QUESTION: Do you believe there are multiple universes, like parallel universes?

WOLF: Yes.

QUESTION: And, if so, can we travel from one to another?

WOLF: Yes.

QUESTION: How do we do that?

WOLF: The first way to do it is with your mind. When you begin to alter reality with your mind, you’re actually traveling to another universe. The more you do that, the more you’re likely to move into a universe that isn’t very likely to happen. That’s harder to do. The problem is, when it comes to working on the mind, we’re in the center of this great big bell-shaped curve. We’re not used to being experts at that. There are a few people around that can do it. Sai Baba does some things once in a while that may or may not be tricks, but if they’re not tricks, then he’s doing something with his mind to make that shift happen. The first thing is you’re going to do it with the mind, and you’re going to be able to alter the odds, because that’s what you’re doing. You’re shifting probabilities from things that are more or less probable to things that are less likely to happen. The mind has invested a lot in this right here and now. There’s a lot of mind here, not just your minds, but there’s a lot of mind here. There are the minds of the people that built this building. That’s here. There are the minds of the animals that died here in the La Brea Tar Pits. They’re still here. There are the minds of the earth and the dirt -- that’s still here. There’s a lot of investiture in that mind. So, for you, as an individual, to shift into, say, the Martian landscape, that’s going to be very hard to do. You can do it. You’re more than likely to be able to do it in a dream state where you can only travel mentally rather than trying to put your whole physical body there. That, in a nutshell, is the answer to your question. Yes, you can do it and it’s real. And we’re doing it right now with quantum computers. We’re just beginning to get to the stage where some of the stuff I’m talking about is happening, at a much simpler level.

QUESTION: How would you consider ayahuasca or the DMT experience - can we equate that with exploring parallel universes?

WOLF: It definitely is an exploration of alternate realities. Realities that seem more in line with spirits of plants, plant spirits. The spirits that I saw when I took ayahuasca with the shamans in Peru -- I didn’t know what they were. I described them as I saw them. Let me tell you what happened to me. I’m in a ceremony and I’ve taken ayahuasca and the shaman is singing this song, and suddenly I close my eyes, and the next thing I know I’m not there. I mean I’m literally not there. And I’m standing in front of this huge pyramidal-shaped building in the middle of the desert, bright shining sun. It’s just not the world that I was in. I just wasn’t there. And I could feel the sand beneath my feet, and I was there looking out, and suddenly three guys come walking into my field of view. There’s a fence in front of this building. They open up the fence to go in. They’re wearing very short like skirts around their waist. They were not more than three and a half feet tall. They were very skinny. They were very brown. Their features are very aquiline. Their eyes are very large. Their hair is like porcupine hair going from here all the way back. And that’s it. They’re walking through the gate and they’re going through there. They’re beckoning me to come when suddenly the shaman’s voice comes in and I’m back in the jungle. I said to my shaman, "Who were those guys?" They started to laugh. They said, "Oh, we know them." That’s the spirit of the tobacco plant. Ayahuasca is a resonance that allows you to enter into the spirit of the plants. So is tobacco. And so is marijuana. They are plant spirits. And you enter into those spirits. Those spirits, you become them, you begin to experience as they are experiencing. That may be hard to accept because everybody thinks, ‘you’re just getting stoned.’ You are getting stoned because you’re not used to being a plant.

QUESTION: You’ve given us the idea that humanity has a certain consciousness and it has had it for a long time. You also talked about the Greeks and ancient peoples knowing things.

WOLF: That’s not the same as consciousness. Knowing things isn’t the same as consciousness. Consciousness is, but knowing things is part of what consciousness does.

QUESTION: Why hasn’t that come down to us as the normal regular teachings that we share with one another?

WOLF: It came down to me through things that I’ve read, so I’m not sure what you mean by that has not come down to us. What have you been spending your time reading? Go to the library and read Plato. He’s got a lot of stuff about this. So, I’m not sure what you mean, it hasn’t come down to us. It has.

QUESTION: Do we teach each other this all the time?

WOLF: Yes, we do teach a lot of the basic understandings of Greek philosophy and Greek understanding of the law and spirit and so forth all the time. That’s going on all the time, but you don’t call it that. You just don’t use the names. Aristotle, Plato, or Democritus -- you don’t use those names. But if you go back and read what these guys said, you realize that a lot of what we’re doing right now is based on what they said. That’s why we study the classics. We study the classics not because we’re interested in classics, but we study the classics to find out what the hell we’re doing now. That’s why the classics are interesting. The classics aren’t interesting because of what they did then. The classics are interesting because of what we’re doing right now. And when you find out that we aren’t doing things so much different than what they said in the classics, it’s kind of interesting.

QUESTION: What you’re saying seems like instead of going to the future and getting messages from the future, it’s also getting messages from the past that are re-evaluated.

WOLF: Of course you do. No question about that. That’s what history books are all about. You definitely get messages from the past. You definitely want to know what’s gone on back there.

QUESTION: In your book The Dreaming Universe, there’s something in there that really struck me about what you said about how we consciously see the world, and then we’re aware of what we’re doing.

WOLF: We’re unconscious.

QUESTION: So, first we act, and then a split second later we’re aware of what’s going on and then we take it back in time.

WOLF: Yes. You’re referring to some work that was done at the University of California San Francisco Medical School. They did investigations in the brain to find out when one becomes aware of a conscious experience. It’s in my book, The Dreaming Universe. You can also go to my website and download a paper I wrote about the timing of conscious experience, which was published in a journal called The Journal of Scientific Exploration. And that will give you all of the data about how the time goes back to the present.

QUESTION: In lucid dreams do you think there’s an actual location out there that people are visiting? Was your subconscious mind creating these places? I have lucid dreams and sometimes it felt like it was like a real place.

WOLF: Let me explain it to you this way. Right now, this is a lucid dream that a lot of us are having at the same time. Now, in light of that, what you have is a lucid dream that a few of us are experiencing possibly at the same time as you are. That’s the basic difference. If you and another person in this room would enter into the same lucid dream together, like the movie "Dreamscape," and would experience that reality, and you could touch, move things around and so forth, how would you ask that question? See, there’s an assumption built into this question. That is, there is a physical real world, and it is the world that I imagine. And what I’m trying to say to you is that those things are not as separate as they may appear. I’m trying to say that this is also a kind of lucid dream, and there isn’t as much difference as you might think there is between this experience of lucidity and the experience you have when you go to a lucid dream. Is that a physical, real world? It’s as real as any physical real world is; however, it’s not experienced as something that is physical by other beings at the same time you are necessarily. But it’s there. It’s as real as anything is real. For you.

QUESTION: I’ve read Michael Talbot’s book, The Holographic Universe. Could there be actual holograms that exist that people could visit at different times?

WOLF: If you think holograms are the answer, sure, that’s a good model for it. The Holographic Universe is a good way to think about it.

QUESTION: Is consciousness something that the mind does?

WOLF: There are different ways of defining consciousness. Shaquille O’Neal plays basketball mostly unconscious because he’s not thinking or necessarily perceiving what he’s doing. That’s why he hurts himself because he doesn’t even know he’s hurt himself until after the game is practically over. So, he’s unconscious. Most of basketball is played unconsciously. Now, most of what you do is unconscious. You drive a car, you get on the freeway, you speed up, and you slow down. Most of that is done unconsciously. You can’t even remember exactly what you did to get from here to there. You did it mostly unconsciously. So, if we look at it that way, then consciousness is mostly unconscious. But if we take the classical definition of conscious being only that stuff which we are conscious of, then that stuff we call the "unconscious" stuff isn’t -- we don’t know what to call it then. So, the word "consciousness" has gotten a kind of a double meaning. Its meaning has gone so far and become so big that the popular definition, or the definition that a lot of spiritual people take, is that consciousness is the basis of all reality. It’s the grounded being out of which human consciousness and subconscious and preconscious and the Freudian models and the Jungian models and even the models that I have come up with of how consciousness and the unconscious work -- these basic models are all relatable to that one field of consciousness. And Mind is a process of consciousness that requires reflection. Mind arises as a result of a reflective process. There has to be something that reflects for mind to arise. Mind is mind-less until reflection occurs. I talk about this in my book, Matter into Feeling. You can get a little feeling of it. I use the myth of Narcissus to indicate something about that process.

QUESTION: You talk about the future coming back to us. Can you look at it like this: that’s the way mind works through our neurotic patterns, and it’s also a synergistic effect of the probable futures coming back to us. We’re always creating probable futures. Like Rudolf Steiner says, it’s good to forget because people get on themselves, they don’t remember like a tape recording. He says when you forget, according to the vibration of the thought, it goes up there and other higher beings will bring it back to you when the universe wants to.

WOLF: When the time is right? Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: So, you can be sitting on the throne or eating or in your car and you have an epiphany. Well, that’s your thoughts going up there feeding the cosmos and coming back to you. Is that another way of looking at the future?

WOLF: These are all wonderful, equivalent ways of looking at things. The notion that heaven, hell, up there, down here -- that presence of the universal mind is actually in here and out there simultaneously. So, it’s not only up, down, in -- it’s in-out as well. Dimensionally, it isn’t a space-time kind of a thing. It’s beyond space-time into space-time. There’s something beyond space-time where this stuff goes on. It’s complicated, and it’s simple. The basic thing can be said simply, you know. There’s God, there’s spirit, there’s whatever. But how spirit turns into consciousness, and how consciousness turns into mind. How mind has the illusion of minds, plural. How all of that arises is the thing I’m most interested in. And I’ve written extensively about it. My books reflect some of the thinking, but the papers that I submit to journals has it more in a kind of "scientific knowledge." I just submitted a paper to the Journal of Mind and Behavior called "On consciousness and Quantum Physics."

QUESTION: Can you differentiate between consciousness and awareness.

WOLF: Consciousness is the ground of being. Awareness is the experience of conscious awareness. To me, awareness means that until I looked at that bottle, I was unaware that it was there. I know I put it there, and if I remembered it without looking at it, I would have become aware of it again in my mind. But I saw it, now I’m aware of it. It was in my consciousness all the time, but it wasn’t in my aware consciousness. I wasn’t aware of it. There are different ways that reflection can occur. There’s a relationship between a certain vibration called the drone, which exists universally and exists as a fundamental sensation drone of the body. It’s that first hum of the body. And when a sensory experience comes in, it comes in as a wave. It mixes with the drone. And that mixing is a record, just like a hologram is made from a wave that is the information wave and the reference wave that the laser produces. They mix in the film to make the hologram. Same thing happens in the way our brains record memories. There’s another reflection that takes place of that process, which has just been once reflected. There’s a twice-reflected process. The first time it’s reflected it’s unconscious; the second time it becomes conscious. And there’s complex ways in which that can take place that involve the self involving itself in the process at lower levels. For example, you can have a self-invested feeling. You can also have a feeling without self -- a self-less feeling. A self-invested feeling has a lot of ego in it. It’s feeling, but there’s a tremendous amount of investiture in posturing; whereas, a child, for example, can feel and there’s no posturing. That’s why we find children so charming. But most of us have been trained by our parents to show certain kinds of mannerisms when it’s appropriate, like we will laugh a certain way, or we will even cry a certain way, or we’ll hold our bodies a certain way. Most of that is self-invested. So, you’re feeling something as a result, but your self is so involved with it that you’re not really experiencing it as fully as you could if you could get yourself out of there.

QUESTION: You mean it’s imitation? It is imitating?

WOLF: Don’t confuse what I’m saying. It is a real feeling, but it’s a self-reflected feeling. It’s a feeling in which the self-image is contained. Self is like ego. You may not even know that your ego is involved in it when you’re having this feeling. You may not even be aware of it at the time, but if you want to you can become aware of it, and as a result of becoming aware of it, you could change the behavior so that the feeling gets expressed. This is what psychology is really all about -- getting yourself out of there. And in some cases trying to get it back in because some people are lost without some kind of ego. So, the ego can bring structure. I believe I understand better than anybody for the first time in the history of science and psychology what the ego’s really all about and how it works and why psychology works and why it doesn’t work. I really believe that. I believe I’ve got the right model. I believe it’s right. I’ve got a bunch of psychologists up in San Francisco, and a bunch of businesspeople who will want to utilize these ideas for business practice right now because they also sense what I’m up to, and they can see how it could improve even business relations. I think I could transform the world with this idea. And it’s ready for it and I’m willing to do it, but I can’t do it alone. People have to understand what I’m talking about; and they have to know what I’m doing. They have to realize what the model is based on, they have to realize what its limitations are, and recognize that it is a model but, nevertheless, it will explain any psychological problem. Any psychosis can be explained with this model. And neurosis can be explained with this model. It goes well beyond Freud and Jung. It’s much deeper than that, and yet it’s based purely on a quantum physical understanding, and it has mathematics in it, so that’s the way it is.

QUESTION: In psychology, in the bigger school of psychology and psychodynamics, psychoanalytic psychology, there’s a particular area that’s always fascinated me. People, most people, have a self-destructive part of themselves. How would the psychology you’re talking about relate to that -- if it does at all?

WOLF: Oh, of course it relates. I can understand where the self-destructive urge comes from. It’s in the model. It’s another process. This structure is very complicated, and there are certain structures that will lead to self-destruction and then other structures that will lead to self-preservation.

QUESTION: In other words, the way you’re talking about this, why would a person want to do something destructive to themselves?

WOLF: I didn’t give you a reason. I said, "Here’s the structure of self-destruction." I didn’t tell you how or why it’s there. I said here’s the structure, here’s what it looks like. You can see a picture of it, how it’s moving in your whole nervous system. Here’s the mathematics of it, now here’s what you can do to get rid of it. I didn’t tell you how you got it or why you got it or where it came from.

QUESTION: How do you get rid of it?

WOLF: Once you can see it, you can see how to get the self out of it. Once the self gets out of it, that urge will vanish. It won’t be there. While it’s in there, because the self is involved in it, there’s the urge to die, the urge to kill oneself, the whole personality, the whole persona -- whatever personality it is, whether it’s self-destructive or self-aggrandizing. Whatever that is that’s in you that’s part of a structure that involves your feelings, your intuitions, your archetypes. Most of these things are usually called archetypal seizures. There are certain archetypes that seize us. For example, right now, the country’s in you know what archetype: War. The warrior archetype has seized a lot of the country. It hasn’t gotten me yet, but it’s got a lot of people. And a lot of people really believe we should be going to war. And they’re willing to die to go to war. Their kids are lined up to kill themselves. Self-destruction. Now, I didn’t tell you how or why. The President has probably got a very strong self-destructive urge. I don’t know why he’s got it. He’s just got it. That’s what he manifests to me when I see him. I see a lot of "I wanna kill myself" in him. I’m telling you the way I see it. You may be a Bush Republican out there. Bless your heart. I have nothing against the man, I’m just telling you what I see.

QUESTION: Where is it originating from?

WOLF: We have to get through a few things here. There is only one mind, and there are ways in which that mind gets reflected as body. And there are different structures that can form, and there’s a lot of choice involved with how they form. There’s a lot of sensory input involved from early childhood experiences, from early mammalian experiences of sleeping in the cave and dreaming, but holding still so you don’t excite the saber tooth outside that’s going to pounce on you. These are all the basic structures that make us up. This is the old brain; this is millions of years old. At least 3 million years old, maybe older. It’s not a question of how, it’s a question of can we see it? Can we recognize it when it’s there? It doesn’t matter how anything works because there is no how, there’s no cause-effect, there’s no pill you can take to make it go away. You have to become conscious, and when you become conscious and you see it and you can see it as a reflection, you can then transform it. If you can’t see it, if you believe you’ve got to take a drug to get rid of it, you’re acting like a machine. You’re not a machine. You’re a conscious, God-created spirit, and you are capable of great things, not little, big things! There isn’t one of you here that’s not a genius. But most of you here believe you’re an idiot! Or a moron or stupid or dumb or ugly or this or that. All this stuff that you think about yourself gets in your way. And then you think I’m going to kill myself ’cause I’m worthless, I’m nothing. We make jokes about it. Who’s the comedian that says, "I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy." Hollywood is built on your feelings of unworthiness. You create these images of these human beings out there, and they’re slobs just like you. And they’re just as dumb or as smart as you are, and you think they’re the most wonderful things in the world. And you die, you fall down, you hero-worship, you want to look like that. Twenty years ago it was Michael Jackson. Now I don’t know who it is right now, but whoever it is, all that is part of your fantasy. I think it’s a wonderful thing that we do to make actors, but I wish most of us didn’t buy into the negativity as much as I think we tend to do.

QUESTION: Einstein says that physical matter doesn’t exist.

WOLF: He doesn’t say that. Have you ever read Einstein? You can read him, by the way. He says some really good things. Why don’t you get Out of My Later Years by Albert Einstein and read what he has to say. It’s really good stuff.

QUESTION: How do we change the mass consciousness of people for them to see the connection and love instead of the fear and the hate?

WOLF: We begin with number one.

QUESTION: Ourselves?

WOLF: First get that going. Once that’s radiating and going, and that light bulb is turned on, then you can shine the light on somebody else. Until you got your light bulb turned on, why bother? Because you got a lot of work to do. You have to get yourself up into that place where you feel confident about what you’re talking about and you know that you’re putting out the right thing to put out to people. People don’t buy stuff if it’s too flaky. You know what I’m talking about? I was on Coast-to-Coast A.M. and I put a lot of stuff out there to people. And 99% of the people that responded to me responded positively, but two or three people said, "Fred, you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. You’re talking nonsense. You’re confusing things. You’re mixing things up." And I was waiting for that. You hear me talk. This is the way I talk. I’m sure there’s got to be somebody in this audience that says, "God, this guy is so this way and that way. He’s so mixed up." Some people are saying, "Whoa, I really dig this." And other people are going, "Huh, what, huh?" This is just the way it is. If you say things that are certain in a very calm, very logical, very rational way, you will convince that one guy who can’t pay attention if you present things in a non-linear way. But if you speak to people whose attention spans have to be jilted, and they have to see a magic trick -- I’m perfect for that. On a radio show I do it with my voice. In front of you I do it with everything I’m doing. But it’s all kind of a trick to get you to pay attention. I don’t care that you understand what’s happening at this particular moment. My interest in you is to get you to go to that book and read what the hell I’m talking about and get into it. Find out who the hell this guy is. Who the hell is this guy that says he can do that. Find out before you dismiss me as being somebody who you don’t have to find out about. It’ll only cost you 12 bucks, 13 bucks. It’s nothing. Or if you can’t even buy a book, go on my website. Go and download stuff for free. It wouldn’t cost you a dime.

QUESTION: What is your website?

WOLF: You can go to my website at <http://home.ix.netcom.com/~fawolf> or to Moment Point at <http://www.momentpoint.com> My e-mail address is <wolf@momentpoint.com> If you e-mail me, I’ll send you back a response and my website pages will be on the bottom of my e-mail. Just go to my websites. If you could remember how to spell my name, just type in my name on any search engine and you’ll find me. I’m in a lot of places. They’ll be over 10,000 entries with my name on it.

QUESTION: Can you make a brief comment about death.

WOLF: I have written about it relatively extensively and I’m still writing about it. In fact, the next two books are going to get very heavy into it. I don’t know exactly how to give a brief comment about it. Let’s see what comes to mind.

QUESTION: Can you tie in how the fear of death issue causes all our fear on the Earth plane or in the physical world?

WOLF: I used to think that, but I think it’s the fear of life.

QUESTION: The fear of our power?

WOLF: None of us really fears death. We think we fear death, but actually what we’re afraid of is life. Life is fearsome. We confuse that with death. Death is the natural state of your being. I mean, you’re in the death state more than you are in this living state.

QUESTION: Is death just change in that we’re scared of change?

WOLF: No, it’s not just change. These beings here have invested how many years on the planet? 30, 40, 50 years. In that investiture a tremendous amount of the energy and the consciousness and the shifting of the curves of life have been emphasizing personality. A lot goes into that, a tremendous amount. That’s how we think. When you get to have extraordinary experiences of lucidity, of God-awakening, of awareness, you begin to see that it’s only a small percentage of who you are. And there’s a vast amount of you that isn’t even in your "body," if I can talk about out of the body as being someplace in physical space and outside of time. No, it’s not even that. To say it’s another dimension, it’s an extension -- it’s not even that. It’s not concerned with the space-time world at all. That’s who you really are. That’s where you live. You’re actually in the home of God. That’s where you are. You’re at that point. You’re in that place.

QUESTION: Your own space and time, right.

WOLF: It has nothing to do with space and time. Space and time comes out of it.

QUESTION: Right.

WOLF: Okay? That’s where you are. That’s your home. That’s the home of this presence.

QUESTION: So, space or time comes out of that.

WOLF: Absolutely. And with that comes all the stuff that allows the different experiences of it to take place. The actors on the stage that emerge from it. And so, now the question is, can we understand the addiction of consciousness, because it is indeed exactly that. It is an addiction.

QUESTION: We’re addicted to stress.

WOLF: Exactly. We’re addicted to being self-possessed beings, persona, bodies, egos.

QUESTION: If that’s what you’re saying, that we’re so tied in that we so feed off of that?

WOLF: Yeah.

QUESTION: There’s this born-again Christian energy that’s running the world right now. People are buying into this Armageddon.

WOLF: It isn’t running the world. There are people who are under the illusion that they’re part of something but it isn’t running the world at all. You’re running the world. And I’m running the world. And we’re running the world.

QUESTION: Armageddon to me is, are you getting it? And if you’re not getting it, meaning becoming conscious, you’re going to get it. You’re stuck in the belief system game of the inner world.

WOLF: Again, all that’s just illusion. That’s all paintings in a cave.

QUESTION: It’s real when you’re in the middle of it.

WOLF: Well, that’s what I’m doing here. I’m waking you up. Wake up. Wake up. This is the wake-up call. Now is the time. Wake up. You can change the world. Change it. Do it now.

QUESTION: I’m playing with you right now to show how we think we’re stuck in this dream.

WOLF: I know. I agree with you, but I’m not agreeing with you that we’re stuck. I am not stuck. I don’t see us being stuck anyplace. Because the words you create are limitations that you put around it, and then what you do is you make it resistant, you build the resistance. What you’ve got to do is read what I have to say so you could understand how and why and exactly what’s going on when you form those words which make those realities become what they are -- illusions which seem solid, but they’re not solid.

QUESTION: What is solid then?

WOLF: Nothing fundamentally is solid. Read my book Taking the Quantum Leap. It’ll explain to you why nothing is solid.

QUESTION: Is your model there?

WOLF: No. This is only quantum physics for the non-scientist. To get to my model you’ve got to start reading my latest books, and you’ve got to go to my website and start looking at some of my papers. And as you get to a point where I can sense from your e-mails that you’re really going to get into it, I’ll start sending you more stuff. If I sent you the paper right now on the "Physics of Consciousness" and how this thing works, you’d go, "Huh?"

QUESTION: One time it occurred to me that all of science is just an edifice that we create to understand reality, to make explanations, and that there’s really no reality to it. It’s just learning little pieces and bringing it all together so it’s kind of a mind. I want to say it’s a mind game. I think this is brilliant what you’ve done, but it’s a model and it’s the same thing.

WOLF: I thought originally you could understand things just because you understood them. But now I realize that to understand means you’ve got a model. Read some of the stuff I write because I can talk like this and you’re going to get some of it, but you’ve got to read me. If you read me it’ll all hit you on a different level.

I want to say thank you to you all. You’ve been a great audience and I appreciate it tremendously.